This is a new post topic and relates to the problem with the two new owners of Lancair. After waiting for almost 2 years for them to get their act together they’re holding the brand hostage. And the word is starting to get out that Lancair support certain service and parts is getting really muddled.
I think it’s time that the Lobo board probably took this on as an issue and demanded a meeting with the two antagonists that are literally holding the brand hostage
I think some good planning in the background needs to happen first, because there’s several alternatives, including forcing a sale of one partner to the other, or a total sale of the brand, or perhaps Lobo creating a parallel unit as a 501(c)(3) non profit to run Lancair as a parts and technical support company.
But I think the bottom line now is it’s time to do something, doing nothing is not an option as the brand is literally being damaged as we talk.
I know that there are some alternatives to forcing a sale and I think there is some people out there that might want to get the brand and run it as a maintenance parts and repair facility for Lancair, and possibly even get into the production of kits again, but that’s not the big issue right now
In my background internationally and domestically, including work with the World bank, I’ve done a lot of project design, financing, and management, and if I can be of any assistance, I would be willing to help
But I think it’s time that Lobo and I realize a number of people are volunteering a lot of their time to keep Lobo running without adding another layer on top
But really Lobo is the only organization right now to shake this problem loose , but let’s go in with a set of options to put on the table, and if the current owners can’t get their act together, we take action to make something happen
Dsve Fretwell
Ownership of Lancair aircraft
Moderator: Admin
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Rock Barchfeld
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:49 am
Hey David,
I can't think of anybody who would disagree with you. While I am not a lawyer, unfortunately I also can not think of any type of leverage LOBO could bring to bear to force the sale of a privately held company. Even if there were such leverage, my guess would be the legal fees incurred would be more than the company is worth. I do believe some of the LOBO, board of directors made those two numbskulls an offer, but they are too busy tearing each other a new one to care.
As for new kits, I think all the molds and jigs have been sitting outside and are no longer usable.
Just for kicks, you might want to run this up the flag pole over at LancairTalk, and get Paul Miller's, (the genius that he is), take on it. I would, but I have been banned for calling him out on his nonsense, I'm certain he has the answer. <LOL>
Rock
I can't think of anybody who would disagree with you. While I am not a lawyer, unfortunately I also can not think of any type of leverage LOBO could bring to bear to force the sale of a privately held company. Even if there were such leverage, my guess would be the legal fees incurred would be more than the company is worth. I do believe some of the LOBO, board of directors made those two numbskulls an offer, but they are too busy tearing each other a new one to care.
As for new kits, I think all the molds and jigs have been sitting outside and are no longer usable.
Just for kicks, you might want to run this up the flag pole over at LancairTalk, and get Paul Miller's, (the genius that he is), take on it. I would, but I have been banned for calling him out on his nonsense, I'm certain he has the answer. <LOL>
Rock
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Dan O'Brien
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:03 am
The Lancair brand has been on a steady decline since Lance sold it, but now these clowns are doing all they can do to bury it, and it’s honestly sickening to watch. I think it’s time that we as a community step up and stop pretending that it’s not the disaster it is. It is unbelievably sad that such an incredible fleet of airplanes is being subjected to such utter incompetence and destructive behavior by the owners of the brand. We cannot let it continue (he says, recognizing the limited options we have).
And it goes beyond the owners of the brand. The Lancair forum that has critical mass is run by a thug who has either excluded or driven away many of the best and most experienced people in the community. It’s friggen crazy.
Every time I hop in my airplane and buzz 1298 nm in a straight line at high efficiency, I think “wow, this is an incredible airplane.” Then I get out and open my eyes, and I see massive dysfunction surrounding a brand associated with some of the best light airplanes ever designed. It’s sickening.
Just the other day I had a discussion with the FAA about my door incident. He said he had put a call into Lancair, but couldn’t reach them. He had questions about the door design. LMAO! I told him in no uncertain terms that the people at the company don’t know ANYTHING about the airplane and gave him 10 names of former engineers and active LOBO members who collectively know roughly 8 billion times more about the airplane than the screwballs that own the brand.
It’s not going to change unless someone or some group that is SERIOUS gets the brand. But how will that happen when the existing owners of the brand are too incompetent, too egotistical, or let’s be honest, just too evil to recognize the harm they are doing, and unwilling to look in the mirror and try to address it? I dunno. How does one get rid of an ill-intentioned dictator who has control over something (say the military) that gives him leverage? It usually takes a coup, but that isn’t an option. How they got the brand in the first place is mind boggling.
Sorry—I am extremely frustrated.
Money talks. Does anyone know how much money would it take for these two clowns to stop bickering and agree to sell? Does anyone know?
Does anyone know the law well enough to know whether we can force their hand because they are diminishing the value of assets we own? I kinda doubt that’s possible, but I am not certain about that.
Who amongst us is willing to spend time and effort putting together a business plan (corporation, LLC, nonprofit, or cooperative, need to think it through) to raise funds to buy the brand and create a business that acquires, stores (need to acquire some space), manages (need some full time staff) and sells parts to the fleet?
How much is the company worth?My sense is the assets are not worth much. I’ve heard the molds are toast, but there are some parts. I think the brand has value IN THE RIGHT HANDS, because the airplanes are great. And there would be value getting the brand out of the hands of clowns and into the hands of a serious small company or cooperative committed to DOING something. Maybe we can get Vern Pifer out of retirement or clone him.
I suggest we try to use this forum to get names gathered of folks who might have an interest in crating a purchase group.
To the moderator—I imagine you might want to block this message. If so, so be it. There is strong language here, but if anything, it UNDERSTATES the dysfunction we’ve faced with the owners of the brand, and we should stop being patient.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And it goes beyond the owners of the brand. The Lancair forum that has critical mass is run by a thug who has either excluded or driven away many of the best and most experienced people in the community. It’s friggen crazy.
Every time I hop in my airplane and buzz 1298 nm in a straight line at high efficiency, I think “wow, this is an incredible airplane.” Then I get out and open my eyes, and I see massive dysfunction surrounding a brand associated with some of the best light airplanes ever designed. It’s sickening.
Just the other day I had a discussion with the FAA about my door incident. He said he had put a call into Lancair, but couldn’t reach them. He had questions about the door design. LMAO! I told him in no uncertain terms that the people at the company don’t know ANYTHING about the airplane and gave him 10 names of former engineers and active LOBO members who collectively know roughly 8 billion times more about the airplane than the screwballs that own the brand.
It’s not going to change unless someone or some group that is SERIOUS gets the brand. But how will that happen when the existing owners of the brand are too incompetent, too egotistical, or let’s be honest, just too evil to recognize the harm they are doing, and unwilling to look in the mirror and try to address it? I dunno. How does one get rid of an ill-intentioned dictator who has control over something (say the military) that gives him leverage? It usually takes a coup, but that isn’t an option. How they got the brand in the first place is mind boggling.
Sorry—I am extremely frustrated.
Money talks. Does anyone know how much money would it take for these two clowns to stop bickering and agree to sell? Does anyone know?
Does anyone know the law well enough to know whether we can force their hand because they are diminishing the value of assets we own? I kinda doubt that’s possible, but I am not certain about that.
Who amongst us is willing to spend time and effort putting together a business plan (corporation, LLC, nonprofit, or cooperative, need to think it through) to raise funds to buy the brand and create a business that acquires, stores (need to acquire some space), manages (need some full time staff) and sells parts to the fleet?
How much is the company worth?My sense is the assets are not worth much. I’ve heard the molds are toast, but there are some parts. I think the brand has value IN THE RIGHT HANDS, because the airplanes are great. And there would be value getting the brand out of the hands of clowns and into the hands of a serious small company or cooperative committed to DOING something. Maybe we can get Vern Pifer out of retirement or clone him.
I suggest we try to use this forum to get names gathered of folks who might have an interest in crating a purchase group.
To the moderator—I imagine you might want to block this message. If so, so be it. There is strong language here, but if anything, it UNDERSTATES the dysfunction we’ve faced with the owners of the brand, and we should stop being patient.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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George Wehrung
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:56 pm
- Location: KMRH
Dan,
I'll bite. To purchase the name I have heard once it would take $400,000. Not sure what parts are left. I think initially you would be a parts seller but then you would have to find people to manufacture replacement parts to keep the shelves stocked. I don't think selling Lancair airframe specific parts are enough to make the business thrive. Then you are competing with Aircraft Spruce for selling common airplane parts. So it's tough from the get-go.
I also heard the molds were wasted.
IMO to revive the brand you would have to find a way to remake airframe specific parts, and create a couple of new airframes that will have a good chance of surviving the insurance scrutiny. Having the option of getting insurance for an airframe that is likely to be financed is a necessity. Without insurance many pilots can't buy these planes. The 4P or turbines are not it as that is a very small amount of people that can afford the insurance or to 'self insure' so the market would not be enough to recapture design and test costs ($10,000 - 4P to $40,000 EVO). I am biased to the ES but it would have to be a better version of what an ES currently is. I also think another more modern and spacious 2-seat design would likely sell well against the RV series. Insurance doesn't like retract, pressurization, or turbo charging. Lastly insurance wants training and recurrent training.
Lastly, the experience in this community that have the funds to buy and the experience to run a company like this are probably not interested in doing so. They have generally ran companies and sold them and are enjoying their retired lives. For them I would have to guess is they don't see any benefits with risking their retirement investments on something that is going to take years to get off the ground and become profitable. And they don't want to work 80 hour work weeks. They would be willing to advise I am sure of that. I think a new fresh group that doesn't have to work (financially wealthy) and are interested in pouring their souls into it could do it. Maybe creating a large investment group out the community and hiring a CEO and some grunt work staff to get it going could work. The investment group would have to be willing to let their funds ride for 10 years if I had to guess. I don't know that's just me spit balling. But there's a lot of the Lancairs falling into new hands of younger flyers and although they are interested in the community they have to work. Most people with serious money don't buy experimental airplanes except as another toy in the hangar.
I'll bite. To purchase the name I have heard once it would take $400,000. Not sure what parts are left. I think initially you would be a parts seller but then you would have to find people to manufacture replacement parts to keep the shelves stocked. I don't think selling Lancair airframe specific parts are enough to make the business thrive. Then you are competing with Aircraft Spruce for selling common airplane parts. So it's tough from the get-go.
I also heard the molds were wasted.
IMO to revive the brand you would have to find a way to remake airframe specific parts, and create a couple of new airframes that will have a good chance of surviving the insurance scrutiny. Having the option of getting insurance for an airframe that is likely to be financed is a necessity. Without insurance many pilots can't buy these planes. The 4P or turbines are not it as that is a very small amount of people that can afford the insurance or to 'self insure' so the market would not be enough to recapture design and test costs ($10,000 - 4P to $40,000 EVO). I am biased to the ES but it would have to be a better version of what an ES currently is. I also think another more modern and spacious 2-seat design would likely sell well against the RV series. Insurance doesn't like retract, pressurization, or turbo charging. Lastly insurance wants training and recurrent training.
Lastly, the experience in this community that have the funds to buy and the experience to run a company like this are probably not interested in doing so. They have generally ran companies and sold them and are enjoying their retired lives. For them I would have to guess is they don't see any benefits with risking their retirement investments on something that is going to take years to get off the ground and become profitable. And they don't want to work 80 hour work weeks. They would be willing to advise I am sure of that. I think a new fresh group that doesn't have to work (financially wealthy) and are interested in pouring their souls into it could do it. Maybe creating a large investment group out the community and hiring a CEO and some grunt work staff to get it going could work. The investment group would have to be willing to let their funds ride for 10 years if I had to guess. I don't know that's just me spit balling. But there's a lot of the Lancairs falling into new hands of younger flyers and although they are interested in the community they have to work. Most people with serious money don't buy experimental airplanes except as another toy in the hangar.
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Dan O'Brien
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:03 am
George,
I think you've nailed several relevant points. The main stumbling block is the economics of either a parts shop or creating a viable new or upgraded kit. Neither appears economically attractive, and market events over many years (not just since the most recent brand transfer) pretty much prove it.
That said, ownership of the brand by owners with a stake in maintaining the brand would be highly desirable. Can someone point to a single thing the current owners have done that has been good for the brand since they purchased it? I can't think of one single thing. I mean, they have a website that has a year and half old statement that the parts shop would be up and running over a year ago (April 15, 2024). It's BEYOND PATHETIC. Even if the owners did NOTHING but maintain a website good enough that people wanting information about Lancair didn't conclude that the company was run by a bunch of incompetents, it would be a huge improvement. This would be true even without a parts shop or new kits, but simply a brand owner that knew how to look in the mirror before going to bed at night. Instead, what we have right now is a complete disaster, and I am done with hiding that fact..
I am sure folks who read this post will shake their heads and say "O'Brien, that is not helpful." Honestly, I think that what is not helpful is continued tolerance of utter incompetence ruining a brand that includes a great set of airplanes that with some care, or even just a small dose of competence, could be even better.
But here we are with a company that has contributed NOTHING to the brand (ZERO, or negative) holding onto it while it craters. it's crazy.
I think you've nailed several relevant points. The main stumbling block is the economics of either a parts shop or creating a viable new or upgraded kit. Neither appears economically attractive, and market events over many years (not just since the most recent brand transfer) pretty much prove it.
That said, ownership of the brand by owners with a stake in maintaining the brand would be highly desirable. Can someone point to a single thing the current owners have done that has been good for the brand since they purchased it? I can't think of one single thing. I mean, they have a website that has a year and half old statement that the parts shop would be up and running over a year ago (April 15, 2024). It's BEYOND PATHETIC. Even if the owners did NOTHING but maintain a website good enough that people wanting information about Lancair didn't conclude that the company was run by a bunch of incompetents, it would be a huge improvement. This would be true even without a parts shop or new kits, but simply a brand owner that knew how to look in the mirror before going to bed at night. Instead, what we have right now is a complete disaster, and I am done with hiding that fact..
I am sure folks who read this post will shake their heads and say "O'Brien, that is not helpful." Honestly, I think that what is not helpful is continued tolerance of utter incompetence ruining a brand that includes a great set of airplanes that with some care, or even just a small dose of competence, could be even better.
But here we are with a company that has contributed NOTHING to the brand (ZERO, or negative) holding onto it while it craters. it's crazy.
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Rock Barchfeld
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:49 am
Dan,
It appears you are advocating for an arrangement not unlike the attempt to revive the Eclipse 500, after that company went through a series of bankruptcies etc. Eventually the Eclipse Owners Club was formed in an attempt to give owners a say in the future of the E 500. Problem was, they were aiming to up-grade existing airframes that were not delivered in the final production configuration, and to attempt to restart production. Never happened, too much debt to overcome.
To effect a rebranding of the Lancair name and increase the value of existing and in progress airframes, my thought would be an attempt to support existing designs with design specific parts. How? Not sure... I believe there are parts sitting on a shelf somewhere in Sacramento or there abouts, unavailable at this time because of the legal wranglings of two people more intent on kicking each other in the privates than settling their differences. What I don't know is what other assets are available. The most valuable, I would think, shoould be engineer drawings, Cad/Cam programs, (if they're still viable), and a list of kits sold. Parts inventory would obviously be a great place to start, if we could find a competent & knowledgeable shop to subcontract to manage sales/inventory. Going to be tough as I have no idea what type of volume of sales would be. Getting someone to take this on a commission basis maybe a tough sell, but parts support for the brand would be a great place to start. Engineer drawings might allow for remanufacture of parts not available, limited production runs would most likely be expensive, but at least there would be an option. Lastly, a list of kits sold but sitting unfinished might provide a readily available source of pieces and part. I imagine there might be some builders who gave up a long time ago and might part with their unfinished kits cheaply, just to get rid of them. All of this would require a settlement between the two Waring parties and finding someone(s) able to organize a parts shop.
Could we get a group together to finance a possible acquisition? I don't know, we'd have to see what's available for how much. Who to run it? The natural choice would that Lancair Guru and master of all marketing, Paul Miller! Just kidding. BTW, calling him a Thug in an earlier post is, in my opinion, an insult to narcissistic, keyboard bullying, Thugs.
Anyway, that is in my opinion is a way forward, to support the brand and revive the Lancair name. Won't happen fast, nor cheaply, and therefore might not be a viable plan. I'm just throwing out some thoughts, I'm certain folks with more information and better backgrounds can tell me where I'm going off the rails.
That is all...
Rock
It appears you are advocating for an arrangement not unlike the attempt to revive the Eclipse 500, after that company went through a series of bankruptcies etc. Eventually the Eclipse Owners Club was formed in an attempt to give owners a say in the future of the E 500. Problem was, they were aiming to up-grade existing airframes that were not delivered in the final production configuration, and to attempt to restart production. Never happened, too much debt to overcome.
To effect a rebranding of the Lancair name and increase the value of existing and in progress airframes, my thought would be an attempt to support existing designs with design specific parts. How? Not sure... I believe there are parts sitting on a shelf somewhere in Sacramento or there abouts, unavailable at this time because of the legal wranglings of two people more intent on kicking each other in the privates than settling their differences. What I don't know is what other assets are available. The most valuable, I would think, shoould be engineer drawings, Cad/Cam programs, (if they're still viable), and a list of kits sold. Parts inventory would obviously be a great place to start, if we could find a competent & knowledgeable shop to subcontract to manage sales/inventory. Going to be tough as I have no idea what type of volume of sales would be. Getting someone to take this on a commission basis maybe a tough sell, but parts support for the brand would be a great place to start. Engineer drawings might allow for remanufacture of parts not available, limited production runs would most likely be expensive, but at least there would be an option. Lastly, a list of kits sold but sitting unfinished might provide a readily available source of pieces and part. I imagine there might be some builders who gave up a long time ago and might part with their unfinished kits cheaply, just to get rid of them. All of this would require a settlement between the two Waring parties and finding someone(s) able to organize a parts shop.
Could we get a group together to finance a possible acquisition? I don't know, we'd have to see what's available for how much. Who to run it? The natural choice would that Lancair Guru and master of all marketing, Paul Miller! Just kidding. BTW, calling him a Thug in an earlier post is, in my opinion, an insult to narcissistic, keyboard bullying, Thugs.
Anyway, that is in my opinion is a way forward, to support the brand and revive the Lancair name. Won't happen fast, nor cheaply, and therefore might not be a viable plan. I'm just throwing out some thoughts, I'm certain folks with more information and better backgrounds can tell me where I'm going off the rails.
That is all...
Rock
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George Wehrung
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:56 pm
- Location: KMRH
Good points gents.
I don't even know if there were ever any engineering drawings. There was an attempt to get a list together of un completed kits but that went no where. There are builders that have bought two or more kits for parts and still have those parts. Every now and then you will find an unfinished kit that comes up for sale.
And in my opinion, no one has ever single-handedly divided a community like Paul Miller. It's sad. I think he wanted to have control of everything Lancair from training (anyone who is a CFI can instruct in these planes no matter their experience), parts, the brand name, insurance influence, and push LOBO and its efforts out. He failed and only retains his website which is only because it has a tremendous history of knowledge.
George
I don't even know if there were ever any engineering drawings. There was an attempt to get a list together of un completed kits but that went no where. There are builders that have bought two or more kits for parts and still have those parts. Every now and then you will find an unfinished kit that comes up for sale.
And in my opinion, no one has ever single-handedly divided a community like Paul Miller. It's sad. I think he wanted to have control of everything Lancair from training (anyone who is a CFI can instruct in these planes no matter their experience), parts, the brand name, insurance influence, and push LOBO and its efforts out. He failed and only retains his website which is only because it has a tremendous history of knowledge.
George
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Rock Barchfeld
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:49 am
George,
You're one of those folks I was thinking about when I referenced people who have a better understanding of the history and design of the Lancair. I'll always defer to someone who has a broader knowledge base than I.
BUT, (and there is almost always a but), I have to think there must be at least a few drawings, blueprints or CAD/CAM files. (I'll limit my response to the IV / IV-P airframes, but I'm sure other models have similar type specific parts). What makes me think this is my recent run-in with a cracked axle mount. While Lanciar most certainly manufactured the main airframe components, they were a composite manufacturing company. I would have to think they farmed out items like my axle mount, gear legs and rack/pinion rears in the retract mechanisms etc. to machine shops able to produce these types of parts in quantity. No way they could have bought and operated the machine tools to form these parts economically. Lancair most certainly would have needed to provide detailed drawings to machine shops in order to produce these types of parts. Additionally, I'm talking this was mid 1980's tech. The current advancements in scanning technologies and 3D printing, (where appropriate), might make it feasible to reproduce type specific parts, almost at an affordable cost. I'm not an engineer, nor did I sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night. Just spit balling ideas.
As for Paul Miller. I've been banned over at LanciarTalk for quite a while. I remember the participation there was far beyond this LOBO website. Not sure if this is still the case, but if so, I can't imagine how. His constant hypocrisy in regard to "Terms Of Use", (rules for thee and not for me), and childish, insulting rants makes me wonder how he has any following at all.
Therefore, this is just my take, and as always consider the source when reading anything from a guy named...
Rock
You're one of those folks I was thinking about when I referenced people who have a better understanding of the history and design of the Lancair. I'll always defer to someone who has a broader knowledge base than I.
BUT, (and there is almost always a but), I have to think there must be at least a few drawings, blueprints or CAD/CAM files. (I'll limit my response to the IV / IV-P airframes, but I'm sure other models have similar type specific parts). What makes me think this is my recent run-in with a cracked axle mount. While Lanciar most certainly manufactured the main airframe components, they were a composite manufacturing company. I would have to think they farmed out items like my axle mount, gear legs and rack/pinion rears in the retract mechanisms etc. to machine shops able to produce these types of parts in quantity. No way they could have bought and operated the machine tools to form these parts economically. Lancair most certainly would have needed to provide detailed drawings to machine shops in order to produce these types of parts. Additionally, I'm talking this was mid 1980's tech. The current advancements in scanning technologies and 3D printing, (where appropriate), might make it feasible to reproduce type specific parts, almost at an affordable cost. I'm not an engineer, nor did I sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night. Just spit balling ideas.
As for Paul Miller. I've been banned over at LanciarTalk for quite a while. I remember the participation there was far beyond this LOBO website. Not sure if this is still the case, but if so, I can't imagine how. His constant hypocrisy in regard to "Terms Of Use", (rules for thee and not for me), and childish, insulting rants makes me wonder how he has any following at all.
Therefore, this is just my take, and as always consider the source when reading anything from a guy named...
Rock
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Dan O'Brien
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:03 am
Rock, George, LOBO Board members:
I think if the only thing that happened was that the brand came under control of a restructured LOBO with the intention of helping current and prospective owners in various ways (mainly by providing information; possibly by intermediating parts sales/ purchases), that would be a significant improvement.
LOBO Board, please forgive me for sticking my neck out in this way, but here is my modest proposal, loosely modeled after a successful non-profit that I’ve been a part of. Maybe it’s a pipe dream. Chime in.
1. LOBO restructures, maintaining non-profit status, but issuing membership units (essentially shares) at a price to be determined. Holders of membership units are “regular members” who own the company. They pay annual dues for access to Lancair resources. There will also be “associate members” (not owners) who also pay dues, but who can cease to be associate members (and lose access to resources) by not paying dues. The company will also run ads on its website and on Lancair Live. Like it or not, that is how most web-based platforms fund themselves in the 21st Century. I personally find other aviation forums that have ads to be fine. Most people passionate about aviation don’t mind a well-constructed sidebar with aviation-related ads. In fact, that can be an information resource in itself.
2. The new company would have annual elections to fill Board positions.
3. The new company would seek to purchase Lancair International. A successful purchase would put an END to the counterproductive bickering that is doing nothing but destructive things, and it would put whatever is left of the company and the brand in the hands of people with knowledge and who care deeply about the Lancair community.
4. The new company would merge Lancair and LOBO. Name? Not sure. I think it is important that everyone understands that the company would be Lancair. Ownership of the brand allows the company to say “Welcome to Lancair, the company that has designed some of the most amazing piston singles ever and produced kits that allowed thousands of pilots to fly them for a wide range of missions missions, from fun, to business travel, to racing. We have been a big part of the composite revolution in aircraft construction… …yada yada. In 2025, we have merged with LOBO, the organization that created and implemented the Lancair training program that rivals the best training programs in all of aviation. …. Yada yada yada.” The new company would be able to make authoritative statements that would come from the owners of the brand, some of whom go back to the early days of Lancair. And it would merge in LOBO and all that it has done.
5. The company’s mission statement would say explicitly that the intent is NOT to restart production or to manufacture and sell parts, although it could become a parts intermediary for the Lancair community, and even hold an inventory of parts obtained from third parties. Whether that would happen would be something to work out. I guess there would be an initial inventory based on whatever the company has as of now. In any event, the mission would be to provide resources for owners and prospective owners to help them. Because the company would be Lancair International, albeit in a non-profit form, it would be the definitive source of information about the aircraft, and would have complete legal control over the brand.
6. The resources provided would require paid labor or contractors. Not a lot, but some. The company would not manufacture anything. But someone needs to manage the website, the forum, the process of selling ad space, and the buy-sell intermediary function if the new company does that. Might need someone to answer the phone. The company requires leadership willing monitor and terminate employees or contractors for non-performance.
7. Why not make parts or new kits? The company would almost be almost starting over in that endeavor, as the existing molds are apparently no good (I’m told), parts were never created using cad/cam (I’m told; they were just drawn and in today’s world would have be cad/cam to be done efficiently), the world isn’t what it was in 80s/90s/2000s with so many people interested in building their own airplanes, etc. That’s OK. As George W said, many parts are off the shelf and available from Spruce. And there are folks making certain Lancair specific parts (e.g., Kevin Risse’s struts, etc.), owners fabricating parts and making them available (albeit via a scrambled set of web resources and word of mouth), a handful of good maintenance shops that know the airplanes and where to get some parts, etc. And of course, one of the beauties of composites is that composite parts can be built by anyone who knows how to do composite work, which should include anyone who built their airplane, and could include anyone interested in reading up on how to do composite work in the voluminous but scattered material out there on composite construction and repair techniques. It’s not rocket science. Well the glues and fabrics are, but those exist. Putting it together isn’t rocket science. Given all of this, if all the company did was provide, maintain, and update web-based resources that became a one stop shop for definitive information on all these things, that would be an improvement. There would have to be limited admin staff to do this.
8. LOBO does some of this mission today, but it does not own the brand. It cannot say “Welcome to Lancair…”. And the LOBO forum does not have critical mass to attract advertisers in a significant way. It is very difficult get that given the huge network effects that exist in information forums, and the other forum has a big head start. My personal view is that LOBO in its current form will never get critical mass as an information conduit without a big shake-up that “tips” information exchange to LOBO. And even a big shake-up will struggle to make that happen. There are countless examples in network industries of markets settling in bad places, and that is the situation we have right now, where the platform with critical mass is run by a Napolean, a handful of Facebook groups have arisen to escape but are somewhat duplicative and not properly suited to the overall mission, and the brand ownership group hasn’t made visible progress for over a year and a half (and didn’t do much better for years before that). This situation needs a complete shake up. My proposal is aimed at trying to do that.
9. Pursuit of such a proposal could fail. It might turn out that ownership of the brand doesn’t add much, I don’t know. Maybe too few folks would put up money for such an endeavor, as it is far from obvious that shares would grow in value or even retain their value. Hard to say. The non-profit I mentioned above is a ski club that built a lodge in Truckee and has 105 dues paying owner/members and a couple dozen associate non-owner/members. It’s been successful since the late 60s. It works to support the common interest of its owner/members. Many friendship bonds formed and have remained, even as generations change. I don’t know whether something like that is possible in the Lancair community. It would sure be nice. Are people willing to purchase shares for such an endeavor? Pay dues? Maybe it would have to be mostly ad supported, but that really requires critical mass. Would the site have enough to attract advertisers?
10. Because the other forum does have a degree of critical mass (although I see less activity there all the time, and the forum doesn’t own the old LML posts or the ES Yahoo forum exchanges), it would be good to negotiate a deal that would bring that forum over. Right now, LOBO is in weak position to do that because it does not have critical mass. Owning the company might change that, but it’s hard to say.
11. I think what I am suggesting requires good bylaws (i.e., a “strong constitution”) that gives member/owners democratic say in what happens, with annual elections of Board members (some terms could be longer than a year), delineation of the kinds of decisions that require only board input and the kind that require member approval, etc. It also needs rules about transfers of membership units, and I think some cap on the % of membership units anyone can own. Without these things, people will not put up money, and they might not do so even with these things. And obviously, it would require current LOBO board members buying into the idea that this is the best way forward for the Lancair community.
12. That’s my attempt at how to move forward in a positive way. Lots of maybes. Would the company sell? Would Napolean reach a deal? Lotsa maybes.
Dan
I think if the only thing that happened was that the brand came under control of a restructured LOBO with the intention of helping current and prospective owners in various ways (mainly by providing information; possibly by intermediating parts sales/ purchases), that would be a significant improvement.
LOBO Board, please forgive me for sticking my neck out in this way, but here is my modest proposal, loosely modeled after a successful non-profit that I’ve been a part of. Maybe it’s a pipe dream. Chime in.
1. LOBO restructures, maintaining non-profit status, but issuing membership units (essentially shares) at a price to be determined. Holders of membership units are “regular members” who own the company. They pay annual dues for access to Lancair resources. There will also be “associate members” (not owners) who also pay dues, but who can cease to be associate members (and lose access to resources) by not paying dues. The company will also run ads on its website and on Lancair Live. Like it or not, that is how most web-based platforms fund themselves in the 21st Century. I personally find other aviation forums that have ads to be fine. Most people passionate about aviation don’t mind a well-constructed sidebar with aviation-related ads. In fact, that can be an information resource in itself.
2. The new company would have annual elections to fill Board positions.
3. The new company would seek to purchase Lancair International. A successful purchase would put an END to the counterproductive bickering that is doing nothing but destructive things, and it would put whatever is left of the company and the brand in the hands of people with knowledge and who care deeply about the Lancair community.
4. The new company would merge Lancair and LOBO. Name? Not sure. I think it is important that everyone understands that the company would be Lancair. Ownership of the brand allows the company to say “Welcome to Lancair, the company that has designed some of the most amazing piston singles ever and produced kits that allowed thousands of pilots to fly them for a wide range of missions missions, from fun, to business travel, to racing. We have been a big part of the composite revolution in aircraft construction… …yada yada. In 2025, we have merged with LOBO, the organization that created and implemented the Lancair training program that rivals the best training programs in all of aviation. …. Yada yada yada.” The new company would be able to make authoritative statements that would come from the owners of the brand, some of whom go back to the early days of Lancair. And it would merge in LOBO and all that it has done.
5. The company’s mission statement would say explicitly that the intent is NOT to restart production or to manufacture and sell parts, although it could become a parts intermediary for the Lancair community, and even hold an inventory of parts obtained from third parties. Whether that would happen would be something to work out. I guess there would be an initial inventory based on whatever the company has as of now. In any event, the mission would be to provide resources for owners and prospective owners to help them. Because the company would be Lancair International, albeit in a non-profit form, it would be the definitive source of information about the aircraft, and would have complete legal control over the brand.
6. The resources provided would require paid labor or contractors. Not a lot, but some. The company would not manufacture anything. But someone needs to manage the website, the forum, the process of selling ad space, and the buy-sell intermediary function if the new company does that. Might need someone to answer the phone. The company requires leadership willing monitor and terminate employees or contractors for non-performance.
7. Why not make parts or new kits? The company would almost be almost starting over in that endeavor, as the existing molds are apparently no good (I’m told), parts were never created using cad/cam (I’m told; they were just drawn and in today’s world would have be cad/cam to be done efficiently), the world isn’t what it was in 80s/90s/2000s with so many people interested in building their own airplanes, etc. That’s OK. As George W said, many parts are off the shelf and available from Spruce. And there are folks making certain Lancair specific parts (e.g., Kevin Risse’s struts, etc.), owners fabricating parts and making them available (albeit via a scrambled set of web resources and word of mouth), a handful of good maintenance shops that know the airplanes and where to get some parts, etc. And of course, one of the beauties of composites is that composite parts can be built by anyone who knows how to do composite work, which should include anyone who built their airplane, and could include anyone interested in reading up on how to do composite work in the voluminous but scattered material out there on composite construction and repair techniques. It’s not rocket science. Well the glues and fabrics are, but those exist. Putting it together isn’t rocket science. Given all of this, if all the company did was provide, maintain, and update web-based resources that became a one stop shop for definitive information on all these things, that would be an improvement. There would have to be limited admin staff to do this.
8. LOBO does some of this mission today, but it does not own the brand. It cannot say “Welcome to Lancair…”. And the LOBO forum does not have critical mass to attract advertisers in a significant way. It is very difficult get that given the huge network effects that exist in information forums, and the other forum has a big head start. My personal view is that LOBO in its current form will never get critical mass as an information conduit without a big shake-up that “tips” information exchange to LOBO. And even a big shake-up will struggle to make that happen. There are countless examples in network industries of markets settling in bad places, and that is the situation we have right now, where the platform with critical mass is run by a Napolean, a handful of Facebook groups have arisen to escape but are somewhat duplicative and not properly suited to the overall mission, and the brand ownership group hasn’t made visible progress for over a year and a half (and didn’t do much better for years before that). This situation needs a complete shake up. My proposal is aimed at trying to do that.
9. Pursuit of such a proposal could fail. It might turn out that ownership of the brand doesn’t add much, I don’t know. Maybe too few folks would put up money for such an endeavor, as it is far from obvious that shares would grow in value or even retain their value. Hard to say. The non-profit I mentioned above is a ski club that built a lodge in Truckee and has 105 dues paying owner/members and a couple dozen associate non-owner/members. It’s been successful since the late 60s. It works to support the common interest of its owner/members. Many friendship bonds formed and have remained, even as generations change. I don’t know whether something like that is possible in the Lancair community. It would sure be nice. Are people willing to purchase shares for such an endeavor? Pay dues? Maybe it would have to be mostly ad supported, but that really requires critical mass. Would the site have enough to attract advertisers?
10. Because the other forum does have a degree of critical mass (although I see less activity there all the time, and the forum doesn’t own the old LML posts or the ES Yahoo forum exchanges), it would be good to negotiate a deal that would bring that forum over. Right now, LOBO is in weak position to do that because it does not have critical mass. Owning the company might change that, but it’s hard to say.
11. I think what I am suggesting requires good bylaws (i.e., a “strong constitution”) that gives member/owners democratic say in what happens, with annual elections of Board members (some terms could be longer than a year), delineation of the kinds of decisions that require only board input and the kind that require member approval, etc. It also needs rules about transfers of membership units, and I think some cap on the % of membership units anyone can own. Without these things, people will not put up money, and they might not do so even with these things. And obviously, it would require current LOBO board members buying into the idea that this is the best way forward for the Lancair community.
12. That’s my attempt at how to move forward in a positive way. Lots of maybes. Would the company sell? Would Napolean reach a deal? Lotsa maybes.
Dan
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Dan O'Brien
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:03 am
BTW, the fact that there isn’t strong responses to a proposal like the one I’m making is itself evidence that this forum DOES NOT HAVE critical mass. But don’t let that stop viewers of this forum from weighing in. My honest personal opinion, possibly to the chagrin of the some LOBO folks (I don’t know) is that forward progress simply WILL NOT HAPPEN without some radical changes, of which my proposal is just one. Others, propose other radical changes, please. There is no monopoly on potential radical changes.
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