Lancair Live!

I read with interest a post on Lancairtalk a couple weeks ago. To quote the author, "LancairTalk, with Paul Miller as the anchor and many others like Chris Zavatson contributing, is now the true heart of Lancair -- my view. I know **** has done a lot of good work but my very limited experience with them gave the feel of a set of self-nominated experts who want to say how people should behave with Lancairs, whereas LancairTalk is just a coalition of the willing, without anyone saying How It Should Be."

Since I have been apparently banned by the moderator of that web site (along with the LOBO BOD, Lancair folks in Uvalde and many others) from posting on lancairtalk.net I thought I would respond to the quoted author's comments since we cannot defend ourselves in a non-free speech forum. The free exchange of ideas, thoughts, opinions and technical information has helped to drive down the accident rate but the banning of individuals on any platform is counter productive to the goal of safe flying.

LOBO was formed in 2008 by myself and four other individuals to address the poor safety record of the Lancair fleet. That is LOBO's mission and it is on the web site. Lancairs suffered eleven fatal U.S. accidents and 19 fatalities that year. The FAA implied they were going to do "something" (pull airworthiness certificates, perhaps) and the insurance companies were non renewing policies. LOBO was formed at Airventure while we watched a fatal Legacy accident occur. We wrote and implemented a successful training program for pilots transitioning to Lancairs. In fact, not one pilot trained by LOBO endorsed instructors has been involved in a fatal accident as opposed to 43 fatal Lancair U.S. accidents by pilots not trained by LOBO. LOBO met with Mr. John Allen (FAA AFS 2) and recommended and initiated AC 90-116, the Additional Pilot Program based on the accident data we collected. Since implementation of the AC in 2014 the Lancair fleet has not had a fatal accident involving a Phase 1 aircraft. LOBO was the Beta tester for the FAA on this project. Additionally, LOBO worked with the FAA on drafting AC 90-109 Transition Training Program and recently worked with EAA and FAA on the EAB Fight Test Program alternative to the 40 hours of drilling a hole in the sky during Phase 1. Finally, one former board member has been a subject matter expert on the General Aviation Joint Safety Committee since 2011. LOBO recently addressed the results of our work on improving our safety record to the FAA, industry and Lancair owners at Airventure 2023 and that news was covered by the press.

LOBO has promoted good safe flying in these machines through education, training, social events and more. Many training and technical documents are found on our website. Additionally, we have served as parties (pro bono) to NTSB investigations of numerous Lancair accidents and have drafted several service bulletins addressing the FAA and NTSB concerns. Today our annual fatal accident averages are one third of what they were in 2008 and we have not had a fatal U.S. Lancair accident in 27 months-- the longest fatal accident free stretch in 20 years.

We are all volunteers. No one gets paid for their service on the board, in spite of allegations to the contrary.

If anyone has questions about this post your thoughts or feel free to call me to discuss further. I welcome your response.

Best regards,

Jeff Edwards
314-308-6719

For those wanting to read the AC it is listed at lancairowners.com as well as on the FAA website. Here is the link: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 90-116.pdf

I was a huge beneficiary of the Additional pilot program. I chose to do the first flight in my ES (Spring of 2022) with an additional pilot from the slate of Lancair instructors. We flew together for over 10 hours as I completed the LOBO training program and gained proficiency. I flew the remaining phase I hours myself, working through the EAA test flight program. I never in a million years would have done first flight myself without these programs. Doing so may not be for everyone, but it was for me. I learned a TON from the LOBO instructor (he doesn't want his name mentioned on message boards) and became confident in the airplane. I flew nearly 200 hours in year one with the knowledge and training that allowed me to fly safely from coast to coast multiple times. I cannot endorse highly enough what LOBO did to help make me a safer Lancair pilot. Not to mention the great maintenance resources and advice freely offered LOBO members, including the LOBO Board.

It's a tragedy that some LOBO members including Board members have been effectively banned from LancairTalk, which has been a useful platform and had critical mass. Banning folks just makes it more costly for some of the most knowledgeable Lancair flyers on the planet to share their wisdom.

Because message forums are subject to huge network effects, it is hard for a forum like this one to gain enough critical mass to become a go to town square when another forum on similar topics was the first mover. But I think we need to persist. We need to make sure the Lancair community benefits from the resources offered and safety mission pursued by LOBO. I hope that at some point all parties involved will realize we're much better off together than apart.

Happy and Safe Flying,
Dan

Dan O'Brien wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:29 am It's a tragedy that some LOBO members including Board members have been effectively banned from LancairTalk, which has been a useful platform and had critical mass. Banning folks just makes it more costly for some of the most knowledgeable Lancair flyers on the planet to share their wisdom.

It’s worse than that, Dan. Instructors, training organizations, maintenance providers, and just generally-knowledgeable and interested people of all walks have been banned. Making any statements that Paul Miller does not agree with will be removed and the author added to the lengthy blacklist. It’s quite the state of affairs when good information regarding safe operations is being censored for the sake of making a buck.

The LOBO board's intent is to not create an "us vs them" situation with the creation of LancairLive.

We wanted an avenue for Lancair enthusiasts, regardless of LOBO membership status, to be able to post, learn, and have access to the LOBO board separately from the www.lancairowners.com website. We have some fantastic resources and better communication leads to higher involvement.

I appreciate those who've joined us thus far and applaud everyone for the positive atmosphere.




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100% agree Ryan.

Even if people are not members, but they are considering the brand knowing that there are additional resources and knowledge of the brand, maintenance of these fine airplanes, and good fellowship will have great impact on the sustainability of the fleet And at the very least, will also have an effect on the safety of operating these aircraft properly.


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JC, are you guys-- three more of the most knowledgeable Lancair guys on the planet--banned from LancairTalk? Sean flew my ES and gave me GREAT feedback. It's hard to accept that you guys are banned, if true. Let's push this open forum!

I believe that JetEXE buying the Lancair company with plans to reproduce kits again will take some of the steam from Paul Miller as had had envisioned himself as being all things Lancair. Plus LOBO will work hard to support the new owners.


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Dan O'Brien wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:01 am JC, are you guys-- three more of the most knowledgeable Lancair guys on the planet--banned from LancairTalk? Sean flew my ES and gave me GREAT feedback. It's hard to accept that you guys are banned, if true. Let's push this open forum!

Yes, I and EPS have been repeatedly and now permanently banned. We took the bold stance that instructors in Lancairs should have a decent amount of experience in the airplanes before teaching. Apparently that was too radical…

J.C. Peterson wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:56 pm

Dan O'Brien wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:01 am JC, are you guys-- three more of the most knowledgeable Lancair guys on the planet--banned from LancairTalk? Sean flew my ES and gave me GREAT feedback. It's hard to accept that you guys are banned, if true. Let's push this open forum!

Yes, I and EPS have been repeatedly and now permanently banned. We took the bold stance that instructors in Lancairs should have a decent amount of experience in the airplanes before teaching. Apparently that was too radical…

LOL. There are now hard facts demonstrating the value of training from experienced Lancair pilots relative to training from others. Hard facts.

Here's a little story. After I owned my ES about a year and had 200+ hours, I decided to do some commercial training. I thought it would help me learn the airplane better and would be fun (and it was both). I went flying with a very good young instructor, a guy who was always booked two months in advance (in high demand). He had never flown a Lancair. Before agreeing to fly with him, I gave him a dissertation (as well as I could as a Lancair geek with limited actual experience) on the need for caution in stall and the limits of where I would go, and he agreed that we should do an initial two flights with him getting to know the airplane before going forward with training. It was me (non-instructor) helping set expectations for the non-Lancair pilot instructor. He absorbed it all. He was very cautious in exploring the envelope and did a great job. He basically fell in love with the plane after the first flight. BIG smiles on his face. (We've got nice planes!) It was impressive how fast the plane was flying again after lowering the nose a bit after initial phases of a stall. He couldn't believe the climb and the true airpeed at low power. I was nervous about stalls, especially accelerated stalls, and he could see that. So he went gingerly. But he has a lot of experience with spins and the like in other airplanes, and while he said he wouldn't want to spin my ES (thought the tail was too small to recover quickly, and I thought that was a plus to hear him say that), he got me comfortable with power off stalls and approaches to the edge of power on and accelerated stalls.

My point is that it can work to bring non-Lancair folks into the fold to instruct, but it has to be done right. And there's a difference between instruction for safe operation and other instruction. In this case, I found a guy who was careful, absorbed everything I said about how this isn't a 172 or a 182 or even a Mooney (though it lands easier than latter in my view!) and went into it cautiously and in learning mode himself, and it worked out great. After two flights, a much more experience pilot than me had a good feel for the airplane, and never rejected what I said about caution and heeded it. I was lucky, though. I found the right guy. I would have bailed if he had been aggressive.

But, would I have jumped into my ES with him for initial training to learn of the ES flies? Not a chance. And will I choose an experienced Lancair pilot for my flight review in March/April (2 year mark)? Yes. The LOBO program for Lancair pilots speaks for itself.

It is crazy for LancairTalk to ban experienced instructors from their talk list because they make the valid point Lancair experience is valuable for teaching someone how to operate their Lancair. Both Cirrus and Lancair have instituted programs with training by pilots with experience in the planes, and the results speak for themselves.