Anyone have experience with a IV-P with a TKS system installed? Performance hit? Cost, etc?
Thermawing / ThermX: I've heard mixed results, at best.
Villinger: Stalled in development and very much on the back burner, or so I'm told.
Buenos De-Ice: Sounds like ThermX without the two-zone, melt and shed process. But are kits actually being produced??
Thoughts or insights?
TKS on a IV-P?
Moderators: George Wehrung, Admin
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Rock Barchfeld
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:49 am
Hey Ken,
I have a IV-PT with TKS and I'm very happy with it. I don't want to bore people so I'll post this reply and if anybody want more details I'll be happy to respond.
My TKS project started in Nov 2021 with ordering the kit from CAV Systems. I recall the kit cost about $23,000 at the time and the lead time to build it was 3-4 months. I believe they are still available.
Installation. I shopped around and narrowed it down to Airframes Inc, and Cascade Aircraft Management. I had seen Airframes work on Tom Sullivan's IV and it looked great. Scheduling at Airframes was an issue so I dropped the aircraft off at Cascade in about April 2022. I had a long list of mods to be done, the big ones being the TKS and installing X-Pro wing tips, (very similar to Freidel tips but they hold fuel). I got the airplane back late Sept, the wing tips taking a lot of time, but the TKS wasn't easy or fast. Bottom line was Cascade did a fabulous job, as good as Tom's plane. I would estimate if the TKS was the only project it would take 2-3 months and the work would be excellent. I assume there is a learning curve here and I would not hesitate to use either shop.
Operational factors. This system is best considered an anti-ice as opposed to a de-ice system. I have knocked off accumulated ice but it takes a lot of fluid. Better to "juice up" the wings using "Hi Flow", takes about 2 min to get fluid out to the end of the wings assuming you've used the system in the last month or so. Then turn switch the pump to "Low Flow". The pump has Hi and Low settings. Hi flow used about 10 oz / min and operates continuously. Like the system installed on Cirrus aircraft, I modified mine to operate in low flow "on" for 30 secs "off" for 1 min. This seems adequate for most purposes, and you can always switch to Hi rate if needed. Low flow uses 6 oz / min continuously so in my installation I use 6 oz every 3 min. The tank in my plane is 3.6 gal (486 oz), giving me approx 240 min endurance on the fluid.
Performance: I can't give you exact numbers as I changed the wing tips at the same time, along with some other mods, and I get feed back from others who have had performance increases with the Freidel tips. Cruise speed is essentially the same, on a standard day at or above FL 250 she still turns in an honest 300 KTAS. My "gut" tells me I might have lost 2 knots but I can't document that as a fact. Caveat; this installation is especially clean and neat. In the landing configuration at approx 3800 lbs she stalls straight ahead at 69 kts.
Considerations. Because the turbines climb and descend so fast I don't hesitate to launch/recover into clouds topping out at about 12,000' or so. You don't want to be cruising around for extended periods at the freezing level, but ATC will usually give you a different altitude once you report "moderate" ice or worse, but you don't want to count on it. I live in the northern tier and would not want to be with out some type of protection.
This is a long winded Readers Digest version of introduction to TKS. Lots of details and lessons learned not shared here. If anybody cares, feel free to ask, I'll give you my 2 cents worth of advise. But always remember, consider the source with anything from "Rock"
Rock
I have a IV-PT with TKS and I'm very happy with it. I don't want to bore people so I'll post this reply and if anybody want more details I'll be happy to respond.
My TKS project started in Nov 2021 with ordering the kit from CAV Systems. I recall the kit cost about $23,000 at the time and the lead time to build it was 3-4 months. I believe they are still available.
Installation. I shopped around and narrowed it down to Airframes Inc, and Cascade Aircraft Management. I had seen Airframes work on Tom Sullivan's IV and it looked great. Scheduling at Airframes was an issue so I dropped the aircraft off at Cascade in about April 2022. I had a long list of mods to be done, the big ones being the TKS and installing X-Pro wing tips, (very similar to Freidel tips but they hold fuel). I got the airplane back late Sept, the wing tips taking a lot of time, but the TKS wasn't easy or fast. Bottom line was Cascade did a fabulous job, as good as Tom's plane. I would estimate if the TKS was the only project it would take 2-3 months and the work would be excellent. I assume there is a learning curve here and I would not hesitate to use either shop.
Operational factors. This system is best considered an anti-ice as opposed to a de-ice system. I have knocked off accumulated ice but it takes a lot of fluid. Better to "juice up" the wings using "Hi Flow", takes about 2 min to get fluid out to the end of the wings assuming you've used the system in the last month or so. Then turn switch the pump to "Low Flow". The pump has Hi and Low settings. Hi flow used about 10 oz / min and operates continuously. Like the system installed on Cirrus aircraft, I modified mine to operate in low flow "on" for 30 secs "off" for 1 min. This seems adequate for most purposes, and you can always switch to Hi rate if needed. Low flow uses 6 oz / min continuously so in my installation I use 6 oz every 3 min. The tank in my plane is 3.6 gal (486 oz), giving me approx 240 min endurance on the fluid.
Performance: I can't give you exact numbers as I changed the wing tips at the same time, along with some other mods, and I get feed back from others who have had performance increases with the Freidel tips. Cruise speed is essentially the same, on a standard day at or above FL 250 she still turns in an honest 300 KTAS. My "gut" tells me I might have lost 2 knots but I can't document that as a fact. Caveat; this installation is especially clean and neat. In the landing configuration at approx 3800 lbs she stalls straight ahead at 69 kts.
Considerations. Because the turbines climb and descend so fast I don't hesitate to launch/recover into clouds topping out at about 12,000' or so. You don't want to be cruising around for extended periods at the freezing level, but ATC will usually give you a different altitude once you report "moderate" ice or worse, but you don't want to count on it. I live in the northern tier and would not want to be with out some type of protection.
This is a long winded Readers Digest version of introduction to TKS. Lots of details and lessons learned not shared here. If anybody cares, feel free to ask, I'll give you my 2 cents worth of advise. But always remember, consider the source with anything from "Rock"
Rock
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George Rosel
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:31 am
- Location: Denver (KAPA)
Gentlemen,
I have built two Lancair 4P-T's and love them both! To date, I have approx 1200 hrs flight time between the two of them.
On the first plane I installed the TKS system and it worked very well and as advertised. I belieive the TKS ice protection system is the best out there when it comes togetting rid of ice. The downside is the messiness of the deice fluid. Typically you can expect it to keep dripping for several days. Also, prior to flight into suspected ice you should wick the leading edge of the wings with a wet rag of deice fluid. You do this during preflight and on the ramp (Not in your hanger!?). With the deice pump running, wipe all the TKS panels with a rag while the deice fluid is working its way to the outboard of each panel. You don't want to wait until you are actually picking up ice to turn on the pump for the first time. Understand if you don't wick the panels it may take a while for the deice fluid to do its job... all the while you are icing up!
I currently have the Therm-x system on my second turbine and it melts and sheds ice very well. Initially we had several problems to work through but when it boots up and working it does a great job. No messy fluids to deal with. The system needs aprox 30 seconds after boot up for a full self diagnostics test. This is normally done during the ground runnup but can also be done in the air. Once the boot up process is complete with no errors the system is armed and looking for 37 deg F or less to begin cycling the heaters. There is really no maintenance except for monitoring the large alternator belt tension.
I have never tested for speed reduction with either system but have been told to expect a 10-12 kt reduction in speed.
These are wonderful airplanes and very fun to fly! But, remember... No experimental airplane with any deice system is legal to fly into forcasted known ice. When encountered, take immediate evasive action.
Make sure you do Annual Recurrent Training with one of the great instructors on our LOBO website!!
Call anytime with questions.
Fly safe,
... George
I have built two Lancair 4P-T's and love them both! To date, I have approx 1200 hrs flight time between the two of them.
On the first plane I installed the TKS system and it worked very well and as advertised. I belieive the TKS ice protection system is the best out there when it comes togetting rid of ice. The downside is the messiness of the deice fluid. Typically you can expect it to keep dripping for several days. Also, prior to flight into suspected ice you should wick the leading edge of the wings with a wet rag of deice fluid. You do this during preflight and on the ramp (Not in your hanger!?). With the deice pump running, wipe all the TKS panels with a rag while the deice fluid is working its way to the outboard of each panel. You don't want to wait until you are actually picking up ice to turn on the pump for the first time. Understand if you don't wick the panels it may take a while for the deice fluid to do its job... all the while you are icing up!
I currently have the Therm-x system on my second turbine and it melts and sheds ice very well. Initially we had several problems to work through but when it boots up and working it does a great job. No messy fluids to deal with. The system needs aprox 30 seconds after boot up for a full self diagnostics test. This is normally done during the ground runnup but can also be done in the air. Once the boot up process is complete with no errors the system is armed and looking for 37 deg F or less to begin cycling the heaters. There is really no maintenance except for monitoring the large alternator belt tension.
I have never tested for speed reduction with either system but have been told to expect a 10-12 kt reduction in speed.
These are wonderful airplanes and very fun to fly! But, remember... No experimental airplane with any deice system is legal to fly into forcasted known ice. When encountered, take immediate evasive action.
Make sure you do Annual Recurrent Training with one of the great instructors on our LOBO website!!
Call anytime with questions.
Fly safe,
... George
George F. Rosel
Lancair Owners & Builders (LOBO)
President
(cell) 303-995-5501
Lancair Owners & Builders (LOBO)
President
(cell) 303-995-5501